Michael is Low on Hit Points

1  Baka-Raptor

I just started Odin Sphere a few days ago. I've barely gone past the alchemy tutorial and my inventory is already full. Can I hack my way through the game with minimal inventory management, or am I doomed to hate this game?

Re  Michael is LoHP

@ Baka-Raptor

Good luck on that. Maybe you can pull of what I couldn't. If you do, let me know how you approached the whole inventory system. I still really want to like Odin Sphere, and if someone can find a way for me to get past inventory management, I might be able to put up with the POW bar thereafter. Maybe...

2  Sorrow-kun

>"garbled noise"

That's a seriously trivial reason to dismiss what is otherwise a really good game. I just got used to it. After a while, I didn't even notice it.

You don't think you're being too finicky at all? I don't know about Odin Sphere, but the Okami complaint is exactly that, a minor quirk. I think it's a bit over-the-top to suggest that something so small "utterly destroyed" the game's potential to be great.

3  jp_zer0

Okami gets more involved as you advance through it. The dialog comes together and you really begin to see all the artfulness of it. The areas become more colorful, the enemies harder, the puzzles more complex, etc. It just starts off deceivingly trite.

But I completely agree on Odin Sphere. But I'm surprised you didn't mention the horrible lag. What I'm worried about is that Muramasa has gotten a little too pedestrian and soft. The third game will be just right.

4  kadian1364

Odin Sphere does the typical thing lazy RPG designers usually do: add a somewhat complicated and arbitrary gameplay component that handcuffs you to spends hours of time tediously managing things you have little to no interest in. Point taken.

But here I was expecting you to say Okami was hindered by unresponsive Wiimote controls or some other hitherto little known crippling gameplay element, but you're complain about sound effects and dialogue? Really? Unless all the lines started with, "Your Momma...", I can't fathom some text and garbled sounds taking me out of an otherwise good game.

5  Kairu Ishimaru

The only people who enjoys Okami is those who loves Japanese cultures, who wants to learn more about Japan, who appreciates art and those who just want to play something different.

Odin Sphere is not a game for a person who doesnt play RPG or those who isnt that into RPGs (Like me). The best RPG game for the non-rpg-playing person would be Persona.

Re  Michael is LoHP

@ Sorrow-kun

What I'm getting at here is that even something that seems trivial can have a massive impact on the player's perception of the game, and therefore their desire to play it. The garbled noise -- as just garbled noise -- is not an issue. It's what the presence of it does for the consumption of dialogue.

They display the text on the screen. I read the text quickly. But I can't push the button to progress to the next piece of dialogue. I have to twiddle my thumbs and wait. When I'm trying to move quickly through dialogue -- especially when it is trivial and uninteresting dialogue -- I become frustrated that the game is holding me back.

That frustration then transfers -- fairly or not -- to the rest of the game. I'm going to need some damn impressive gameplay right afterwards to hook me back in. And I didn't get that. Does the gameplay get better? I don't know, but I do know that it is the developers job to get me hooked on the gameplay from minute one. Clover certainly didn't do that.

And believe me, I'm not being finicky. I wanted badly to like this game. I wanted to play further in and see what it had to offer. But when a game has me pissed stunting my natural reading while offering nothing amazing off the bat gameplay-wise... that's my cut off point, apparently.

@ jp_zer0

I kind of figured Okami would get better. But I don't think I have the patience to get there. The dialogue design really infuriates me. I brought in a buddy the second time I gave this game a chance and he felt the exact same way. If either the gameplay or story would have been excellent from the get-go, I think I'd be fine. But alas...

On to the other topic, Muramasa is the actually third game. Princess Crown was the first game in this spiritual successor series of games. I haven't looked too much into Muramasa, but I really hope that game succeeds where Odin Sphere failed for me. And as for lag, I think I've just become accustomed to it during gaming. I can't even focus my complaints on that when the other, bigger issues aggravate me so.

@ kadian1364

What you said on lazy RPG designers is dead on.

And I did have issues with the Wii-mote, but there's always the PS2 version if you wish to get around that. Too bad my main issue with the game is in both versions. Heck, the PS2 version doesn't even let you skip the cutscenes at all. It's something that doesn't sound all that horrible on paper, until you're playing the game itself -- nix that, reading the dialogue itself. It's a frustration that I can't fathom why they don't let you skip ahead.

@ Kairu Ishimaru

Actually, I think you can get interested in Okami if you have any desire for a unique art direction in gaming. Whether or not you like Japan or Japanese culture, the level of creativity the art dishes out certainly deserves your attention. Unfortunately, the actual production has failings that break my chance of appreciating what the art might produce.

I like RPGs, and I like 2d side-scrollers. Odin Sphere should have won me over easily. I really wish you could mod console games. Then I could cut the bullshit out of both games. Maybe one day...

6  IcyStorm

People aren't buying this game because it doesn't appeal to them at first, not necessarily because they aren't great. And many gamers aren't willing to sit down and play a title like this.

7  Omisyth

I can see your point of view but I don't agree in the slightest that they annihilate the games in the way you say.

Okami's dialogue is just like the story: simplistic. Okami's world is one of fantasies and legend and the dialogue is in keeping with that. The same could be said for Rayman: The Great Escape. They all spoke in gibberish that you couldn;t skip past, and there's no way the dialogue was that dense, but that doesn't make it any less enjoyable. And you can't say that it's simply "stupidity" when you don't seem to have even scratched the surface of the game. The first time I played through Okami it took 30 hours to complete - it's one of the longest action platformers I've ever played. To say that one minor flaw (and I think it's more of a personal flaw than anything) of the game completely cripples the characters, the artwork, the storyline and even the gameplay itself just doesn't sit well with me.

I'm more in agreement with you about Odin Sphere but all I can really say is: deal with it. The POW bar's there to stop you mindlessly attacking and to keep you using various techniques - it doesn't even hamper gameplay that much if you're focused on what you're doing. Unless your just continuously pressing the X button, there shouldn't be as much of a problem.

The inventory system is definitely cumbersome, but that's why you 1. buy larger bags and 2. be selective about the items you pick up. If you need something, grab it - if you don't, don't. Or even just dump it all into a potion (you can never have too many phozons).

And the reason they performed poorly in sales was not because they were flawed games but because they weren't mainstream titles. They offered too much that was different from the norm or wasn't just a sequel to a succesful franchise, and it's a rare case where you see games like that sell well these days.

8  Ryan

Can't believe you gave Okami a second chance after we banged our heads against the wall trying to get through that opening cinematic. What Mike is trying to say is that while made up languages are ok, it makes no sense to force the user to wait for the duration of the audio clip of gibberish once the 2 seconds of subtitles have been read. Thanks for the heads up that it persists through the opening, won't bother with it in the future.

Re  Michael is LoHP

@ IcyStorm

I know, I know. I do realize that is definitely more the issue here. However, I just feel that the cries of "why are you people not buying this game" to be a bit unfair. Yes, it is unique, creative, and a breath of fresh air. But that alone doesn't excuse bad game design. I feel that the developer must first design a game without such game breaking issues before they can cry foul over the lack of interest.

@ Omisyth

I don't mind that Okami's dialogue and story are simplistic. Actually, keeping to local folklore can be seen as a good quality. But they could be more terse in how they actually speak. Think along the lines of Shadow of the Colossus. Leave some things to my imagination. And certainly don't babble on, especially during all the tutorial stuff early on.

As for length, 30+ hours is a bad thing to me. I don't like long game, because they all get there via filler. I don't think an action game has any business exceeding 10 hours. Least I certainly don't want it too. Some of my favorite games of all time -- ex. Zone of the Enders 2 -- are only a few hours long. And even though they are my favorite games of all time, I still wouldn't want them to stretch on longer than they had to.

Of course, the dialogue design mishap doesn't affect the artwork, characters, gameplay, etc. But a game is one cumulative experience. If one element puts me in a terrible mood and ruins all my fun, I can't enjoy all the other elements.

That's the sad truth, because I really wanted in on some of those other elements. But I simply can't put up with their dialogue design and therefore I'm being roped off from all of the game's potential goodness. And I say potential, because I really can't say if that even holds to be true. I'd have to get there and judge it for myself.

With Odin Sphere, I could deal with the POW bar... maybe. It's merely the icing on the offends-Michael-cake. I would need to get past the bigger issue, which is the whole item system. At this point, I don't even want to look at the damn inventory screen.

Of course I loaded up with large bags. That's the first thing I spent any money on. I think I'm already maxed out on large bags. The game has just thrown that many items at me. And yes, I'm still forced to leave precious items on the ground because I simply have no room for them, and the other items in my inventory are more important. Ugh.

Finally, it's a rare case unique game like these perform well, however they first need to be technically sound before people give them a chance. Just look at the first hour of Okami. It's crap, pure and simple. Nothing is interesting as of yet, the gameplay is still very simple, and the dialogue is frustrating. Can you really blame someone for throwing in the towel after being presented with all of that? That's not fair if you do blame them. Like I'm supposed to just have faith for no reason that the game will get magically better.

@ Ryan

Yeah, I gave the game a second chance on the Wii. I even had Jason come in after a while and tell me if I was being overly harsh or anything. He was just dumbfounded by the game. He's the type that's less caring about the style and art, and just wants a tight core game. So you can imagine how much he hated Okami.

Yeah, some prompts let you skip the dialogue noise. Some don't. I'm speechless, I truly am...

9  Omisyth

Weird, I thought I wrote a reply already...

Anyway, I can't remember what I wrote, but the general gist of it was that Okami is a simple game that's aimed at all ages, with a generous learning curve. I wouldn't say the beginning is crap or uninteresting because the game is more about the story and aesthetics than anything else, and if those things didn't grab you, then it's probably just not your type of game.

Re  Michael is LoHP

@ Omisyth

Huh? You did write a long reply above. Or do you mean a reply to my reply?

I understand that Okami is aimed at a less hardcore audience. The gentle learning curve is fine. Stuff still needs to happen, however. Set pieces don't have to be hard to be creative and exciting. And there wasn't anything right off the bat that really caught a hold of me. The style of the game is slick, but it needs some substance to back it up. While that may come later, the player isn't guaranteed to stick around that long.

As a developer, you have to hook a player right from the start. A good counter-example of this is in my next post. Vagrant Story has an amazing opening sequence that hooked me from the very first second. The game continued to ride that momentum and had solid execution throughout. It gave me a reason to push past all of its issues. I could see the light, and it was pretty freaking glorious.

10  math4origami

"What I found as I played the game is that I was spending more time managing my inventory than I was fighting, aka playing the actual game."

Then you should pick up an action game like a hack-and-slash. I spent a bunch of time managing items in Odin Sphere, too, but I enjoyed it since I viewed it as partly a strategy game. You have limited resources and have to work with what you get, make choices, etc.

There's a potion you can make that gives your unlimited POW for a short while, I think it's mix U (Unlimited). If you have that plus R (Regeneration) and P (Painkiller, my favorite potion), then it almost makes the game feel too easy.

Re  Michael is LoHP

@ math4origami

I definitely think Odin Sphere would have played better as a 2d action game rather than a gimped-by-RPG-mechanics 2d action game. To me, that stuff got in my way. Some RPG mechanics can work in action games, but then others need to stick to RPGs themselves. And I do like RPGs. Don't get me wrong. They were my favorite genre growing up. I just feel that stuff got in my way while playing Odin Sphere.

I don't mind having to go in every so often and manage my inventory. I mind when I have to do it at the end of every single battle. I could never get into the flow of the action because each "stage" would be over in a few seconds, and then it would be back to item management... It was too broken up for me.